tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15170815.post114290794915965775..comments2023-09-22T06:56:46.508-05:00Comments on Adoro te Devote: The OransAdorohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02853244433854822731noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15170815.post-1143689388483305742006-03-29T21:29:00.000-06:002006-03-29T21:29:00.000-06:00March Hare,I can certainly understand how people c...March Hare,<BR/><BR/>I can certainly understand how people can be uncertain as to what is and isn't allowed in the Mass. The orans posture is one such example. In my comments I'm quoting from two sources - Colin Donovan's piece at <A HREF="http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm" REL="nofollow">EWTN</A> and an article from the <A HREF="http://www.adoremus.org/1103OransPosture.html" REL="nofollow">Adoramus Bulletin</A> regarding the orans and the GIRM. What I want to stress in quoting these articles is that we're not talking merely about adhering to the letter of the liturgical law, but more importantly trying to discover and understand the underlying reasons for why it says what it does.<BR/><BR/>"First of all, nowhere in the current (2002) General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) does it say that the orans posture is recommended for the congregation during the Our Father.<BR/><BR/>"In GIRM 43 and 160, the paragraphs dealing with the people's posture during Mass, the only posture specified for the congregation at the Lord's Prayer is standing. It says nothing at all about what people do with their hands. This is not a change from the past."<BR/> <BR/>[Mitchell speaking] Now, my understanding regarding the GIRM is that if a position, posture or action is not specifically mentioned or approved, then <I>de facto</I> it is not allowed. Ergo, if the orans is not recommended within the GIRM as action suitable for the laity during the Mass, it should not be done. Of course, as we both know, just because something is not allowed does not mean that it doesn't happen.<BR/><BR/>A further question is why the Orans position on the part of the laity is a problem. Again, from Colin Donovan:<BR/><BR/>"Use of the Orans position by the laity during the Mass, specifically during and after the Our Father, is a source of liturgical disunity. Lets take each case.<BR/> <BR/>"Our Father. The intention for lay people using the Orans position at this time is, I suppose, that we pray Our Father, and the unity of people and priest together is expressed by this common gesture of prayer. Although this gesture is not called for in the rubrics, it does at least seem, on the surface, to not be in conflict with the sacramental sign system at the point when we pray Our Father. I say on the surface, however, since while lay people are doing this the deacon, whose postures are governed by the rubrics, may not do it. So, we have the awkward disunity created by the priest making an appropriate liturgical gesture in accordance with the rubrics, the deacon not making the same gesture in accordance with the rubrics, some laity making the same gesture as the priest not in accordance with the rubrics, and other laity not making the gesture (for various reasons, including knowing it is not part of their liturgical role). In the end, the desire of the Church for liturgical unity is defeated.<BR/> <BR/>"After Our Father. This liturgical disunity continues after the Our Father when some, though not all, who assumed the Orans position during the Our Father continue it through the balance of the prayers, until after "For thine is the kingdom etc." The rubrics provide that priest-concelebrants lower their extended hands, so that the main celebrant alone continues praying with hands extended, since he represents all, including his brother priests. So, we have the very anomalous situation that no matter how many clergy are present only one of them is praying with hands extended, accompanied by numbers of the laity."<BR/> <BR/>[Mitchell again] It would seem, therefore, that there is a clear case against adoption of the orans position by the laity during Mass. And yet this continues to be a contentious issue, one that sows disunity at a time when unity is not only desired but essential. The source of the confusion stems from past discussions at the bishops' conferences. <BR/><BR/>As to what that confusion is, well, I don't want to put up a comment that's as long as Adoro's original post. Please feel free to check out the Our Word blog and email me; I'd be glad to email you more extensive excerpts from these articles (and others), including further discussion on why the orans posture in particular is a difficult position to defend.<BR/><BR/>And keep in mind, as I mentioned earlier, that we're not simply talking about legalism and the GIRM; we're considering the real possibility that the posture becomes a sign of disunity and, therefore, contrary to what we try to accomplish with the Eucharist and the Mass.<BR/><BR/>Again, to say that this posture is not allowed in the Mass is not to say that it does not happen, even in conservative dioceses. We can speculate on why, as well on the other facets of liturgal posture that you mentioned, but that's for another comment! <BR/> <BR/>MitchellOur Wordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12188506164399989250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15170815.post-1143598513956171792006-03-28T20:15:00.000-06:002006-03-28T20:15:00.000-06:00March Hare,I really have to wonder how you define ...March Hare,<BR/><BR/>I really have to wonder how you define "conservative", because the altar boys are NOT to be holding hands with the priest during the Mass. Now, that's not to say that it's a huge deal, either. I would have to actually attend your Mass in order to see the totality of circumstances so I am not going to pass any kind of judgment on the Mass. <BR/><BR/>However, in regards to kneeling during the Consecration, you have been misinformed. I'll admit that the custom may differ from Europe to the US, however in the US and specifically in the Roman Rite, kneeling is the preferred method and is not only encouraged but strongly suggested that standing is not appropriate. Our customs in the US differ from Europe. You can also apply this to liturgical dance...in some cultures, even in the Roman Rite, liturgical dance is appropriate as it is firmly grounded within the culture as a normal expression of their faith. This is NOT our culture in the US and so it has no place. <BR/><BR/>If you have access to Catholic Answers or Relevant Radio, or Ave Maria Radio, you may want to listen to them as they've got great resources.Adorohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02853244433854822731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15170815.post-1143594688956688052006-03-28T19:11:00.000-06:002006-03-28T19:11:00.000-06:00Thanks for the explanation.However, in my Diocese,...Thanks for the explanation.<BR/><BR/>However, in my Diocese, the altar servers join the priest at the altar and hold hands during the Our Father. Since we have a ~very~ conservative bishop, I find it difficult to believe that he would encourage an act that goes against the GIRM.<BR/><BR/>We now kneel through the Great Amen, rather than standing at the GA as before. There were also several changes to how the Eucharist was distributed (mostly involving the EMEs) to ensure that the Body and Blood of Christ were handled properly.<BR/><BR/>We have the option of standing, sitting, or kneeling once the Eucharist has been received; again, we were told that standing is preferred, but the other two options were acceptable. <BR/><BR/>Additionally, standing during the Consecration during the Roman Rite is not new. Many cathedrals and churches in Europe had neither pews nor kneelers, so the congregation had little choice but to stand. IIRC, that was the case in Notre Dame in Paris.March Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06521211369549628901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15170815.post-1143296660198925252006-03-25T08:24:00.000-06:002006-03-25T08:24:00.000-06:00M2,Thanks for stopping by! I think if you can pul...M2,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for stopping by! I think if you can pull this page up, just the link itself, you may be able to print everything including the comments. I do hope it's helpful for your students. <BR/><BR/>I also want to teach RCIA but I don't think I have enough knowledge to do so and I have to admit I'm fearful of giving incorrect information. I have already been on the wrong end of catechesis as a child/young adult and so it disrupted my faith for many years. God bless you for what you do! <BR/><BR/>Thank you for trying to teach newcomers about correct positioning and all the things that are otherwise done incorrectly or not at all. If my post is helpful to anyone, please give the Holy Spirit the credit; by his fruits you shall know him. <BR/><BR/>God bless!Adorohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02853244433854822731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15170815.post-1143282846133396992006-03-25T04:34:00.000-06:002006-03-25T04:34:00.000-06:00i would have *created a link* had i read all of th...i would have *created a link* had i read all of the comments prior to creating a link from my desktop blogger publishing button...<BR/><BR/>outstanding post and one i am printing out for my RCIA students. thank you.~pen~https://www.blogger.com/profile/07822146312033633535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15170815.post-1143035387686580502006-03-22T07:49:00.000-06:002006-03-22T07:49:00.000-06:00Confessionator,As I understand it, in the Eastern ...Confessionator,<BR/><BR/>As I understand it, in the Eastern Catholic Church (not sure which Rites, if one of them or all of the Eastern Rites), it is their custom to stand during the Consecration, but I don't know if they do so after Communion. For them it's proper, but of course, it's a different Rite. <BR/><BR/>For we of the Latin Rite, however, it's not appropriate to stand at those times. Isn't it frustrating to learn that stuff which has been shoved down your throat and taught as "correct" is actually just watered-down liturgy which is hand in hand with the watered-down catechesis? <BR/><BR/>Are you seeking a new parish?Adorohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02853244433854822731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15170815.post-1142986315830021082006-03-21T18:11:00.000-06:002006-03-21T18:11:00.000-06:00March Hare,I certainly hope NO ONE is standing in ...March Hare,<BR/><BR/>I certainly hope NO ONE is standing in the Orans position during the consecration! Typically it is during the Lord's Prayer. Quite honestly, the timing is a moot point. The laity should NOT be standing in the Orans position AT ANY POINT during Holy Mass. I will need to edit, but as I haven't done so yet, what I will be adding is this: During the Lord's Prayer, the priest, as our spiritual father, standing with Jesus before him, body, blood, soul, and divinity, is standing in the Orans. People often think that they must "copy" or "mirror" the priest (I've heard this dubious reasoning). They do not realize that the priest is standing in that position, leading the prayer and offering our collective Our Father. It is like an embrace. We are presumptious if we are standing in that position at any point in the Mass. <BR/><BR/>Regarding the feminist link...I have seen this position promulgated by women as most men didn't seem real inclined to do it but of course do so often now as they have never been taught, or have beem misled differently. I have heard it is an "import" from Protestant Churches, people who do not understand that our prayer positions during the liturgy have true and complete meaning. The use of these positions by the laity is inappropriate and helps to water down the impact which would be seen by everyone if they weren't so busy trying to do what the priest is doing. <BR/><BR/>We are not to do what the priest is doing. We are to do what the laity is supposed to do: stand for the Gloria, the Gospel, for the Our Father, the procession and recession; mark our foreheads, lips, and hearts during the Gospel; kneel during the consecration and after the Agnus Dei and again after Communion, and remain seated during the readings and wherever indicated otherwise. Each position of ours has meaning and indicates humility. Each position used by the priest has meaning within the liturgy. <BR/><BR/>I wish I had known this long ago. I wish I had understood. I wish I could communicate effectively so that others will understand. <BR/><BR/>Thank you for reminding me what editing needs to be done yet! <BR/><BR/>God bless!Adorohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02853244433854822731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15170815.post-1142977305724862302006-03-21T15:41:00.000-06:002006-03-21T15:41:00.000-06:00Okay, I'm confused. Are you saying that the congr...Okay, I'm confused. Are you saying that the congregation was standing in the Orans position during the Consecration or just during the Lord's Prayer?<BR/><BR/>FWIW, I don't see the Orans position, or holding hands, during the Lord's Prayer as having originated with feminists. I do see a lack of instruction from the priest. My parish recently changed some of their practices, per the request of the Diocese, to conform more closely to the GIRM, which have caused some moments of confusion.March Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06521211369549628901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15170815.post-1142964405283616602006-03-21T12:06:00.000-06:002006-03-21T12:06:00.000-06:00Excellent post, Adoro! I plan to borrow your comm...Excellent post, Adoro! I plan to borrow your comments the next time someone asks me why I "don't do Orans"<BR/><BR/>Cathy_of_AlexAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15170815.post-1142955614405680302006-03-21T09:40:00.000-06:002006-03-21T09:40:00.000-06:00The next morphing stage is to have the "Eucharisti...The next morphing stage is to have the "Eucharistic Ministers" (not EMHCs) gather around the altar and hold aloft the host in union with the priest. Then they can partake a split second after the priest (and before he drinks from the chalice).<BR/><BR/>At the end of the Mass, the priest can then say "May the Lord bless us" instead of "May the Lord bless you".<BR/><BR/>These steps are necessary to further blur any distinction between the priest and laity. I'm sure liturgists can come up with some more to minimize the priest's role <I>in persona Christi</I>.<BR/><BR/>The error can easily be summed up in four words:<BR/><BR/><B>Lex Orandi, Lex credendi</B>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15170815.post-1142950440021829162006-03-21T08:14:00.000-06:002006-03-21T08:14:00.000-06:00I would agree that you have hit the nail on the he...I would agree that you have hit the nail on the head with that post, Adoro. We need to print off 20 or 30 million of them and hand them out at the various parishes.<BR/><BR/>I must admit, though, if someone thrusts their hand at me, I willingly grab it, even if they are much taller or shorter, sometimes causing painful contortions for the two minutes or so.<BR/><BR/>But posture is something that needs to be addressed at other points in the Mass.<BR/><BR/>My parish of record, the Basilica, has us stand during the Consecration. I've read the arguments, and I suppose a case can be made for that, but I prefer to kneel in adoration. Even though the American Bishops want us to kneel. But that doesn't stop some people. <BR/><BR/>But whatever the position, a prayerful, reverent posture is called for and when I am called upon to stand, I fold my hands appropriately and thump my breast in the old style at the Words of Consecration. <BR/><BR/>I've never even seen anyone standing and few kneeling, bother to even fold their hands.<BR/><BR/>When asked, some Catholics are aware that they are present at the Consecration of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Our Lord, but you'd never know it from outward appearances.<BR/><BR/>Part of the reason I'm sure is that they have not been told to do that. <BR/><BR/>I've noticed that since the instruction has come down a few years ago that we are to make some reverent sign (slight bow, etc.) when we are standing in line for Holy Communion, more and more people are doing that. <BR/><BR/>So people will behave properly if instructed.<BR/><BR/>With respect to holding hands, I must admit that when I see parents and children holding hands at the Our Father, I am a bit envious and wish that as a child my family had engaged in such a practice. So I suppose there are two sides to that, too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15170815.post-1142910692626069472006-03-20T21:11:00.000-06:002006-03-20T21:11:00.000-06:00Excellent, excellent post. I have seen the same t...Excellent, excellent post. I have seen the same thing in parishes I've attended over the years - the laity in the Orans position - and I've disapproved of it as well. But I've never seen it in the same light as what you described. I really believe you've been graced by the Holy Spirit to see this with such a profound insight. What is it that Jesus says to Peter when Peter makes his confession of faith? Something about how no mere man could come up with this knowledge?<BR/><BR/>Girl, you are <I>so</I> in tune right now. I hope some of it rubs off!Our Wordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12188506164399989250noreply@blogger.com